Sunday, May 17, 2009

The Prophecies of Joshua Udell

Over at the Fayetteville Freethinker Forum, a local prophet has been posting his material.


Prophecy
by Joshua Udell

3/11/09

Grace, grace is sufficient for all men for all people. The way of the cross is level and straight for everyone and anyone can come to the cross. The choice is yours to accept the forgiveness and to cast your burdens down at the cross. Do you not know it is your choice to accept the cross or leave the cross behind.

People say we want proof! We want scientific proof! How do you prove an empty grave? There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!

Many shall say, where is this proof the source outside the Bible? You shall find these discoveries written outside the Bible. You will know, but they will say this is a forgery, this is a hoax this is not proof. Believe me, if you want proof outside the written Word, why won’t believe? You don’t understand, God’s ways or thoughts.

Just as in the days of Noah, the days are increasing in wickedness at a faster pace than Noah could even tolerate. Noah had over 100 years to wait for the people to listen to the Word of God. In these days I tell you now wickedness is accelerating so quickly the days will be shortened because of God's mercy on the elect.

In the darkness of evil the light will be more and more obvious for the believers of God and the Light shall prevail, Amen.

Kentucky is facing a time of turmoil, a time of leadership crisis. Amidst this all there will be great discoveries found in the soil of Kentucky during the time of Abraham Lincoln’s day.

Do you not know about the sword that divides a mother against her daughter, a father against his son? Israel is preparing for an all out war against her enemies. Iran will be hit on the blindside. Even though they say Benjamin Netanyahu escaped by the hair on his head, he will survive the outcome of this war.

More leaders in the Muslim communities shall find Christ. As there are more Arabs already who know and follow Christ than Jews, they will teach the Jews about Messiah Yeshua more and more in the days ahead.

Mississippi, Jackson, Mississippi, don't you know about the fires that shall come with the uncontrollable winds. And when the earthquake hits your state they shall be stunned by the largest earthquake that has ever hit Mississippi.

The atheists in this nation are like the brothers who believe, but in what exactly? They say, religion is to blame, but when you show them love at all costs they will begin to wonder, perhaps this is the first example of what Jesus truly wanted Christians to be.

Pensacola, Florida you must be ready for the great rains, rain, rain, and more rain, when you hear them speak of floods and storms, be prepared to do all you can to stay safe and if you must leave the area until it is safe to come back.

- Joshua
http://joshuaudell.webs.com/

I wrote a terse reply on the board, but there is a lot of claims made here. Some may even be testable by just waiting to see what happens. Otherwise, its the same old doom and destruction prophecies you always hear. I think these ministers get some kind of perverse pleasure out of believing that bad things will happen.

65 comments:

Sherry H. said...

Oh, they definitely get a perverted pleasure out of their doomsday prophesies, Robert. Be sure of that. It's all about feeling important and powerful and nothing more. Don't expect any of them - including Joshua - to admit it, though!

Lorena said...

How do you prove an empty grave? There is no body. You can go to the body of Mohammed or many of the ancient prophets. The proof is Jesus died and rose!
--

Preachers I respected and looked up said that from the pulpit with such conviction that I believed it as if I had been there myself. It didn't even occurred to me that both the death and the resurrection could be at best stories aggrandized by the writers' imaginations and at worst pure folktales.

It didn't occurred to me, unfortunately, that there was absolutely no proof. None. Zero. I didn't even suspect that it was all hearsay.

The preachers, of course, heard it from somebody they respected and believed blindly. Most preachers, in my opinion, aren't being dishonest. They're just naive--like I was.

At least Mohamed and others have a grave, so we know that they existed for sure. Jesus? Who knows.

Lorena said...

BTW, I was talking about other naive preachers. Joshua seems to have found a way to materialize all the "riches in glory" that he has in Jesus his savior.

Robert Madewell said...

Welcome Sherry.

He did make some testable claims. An earthquake in Mississippi, for example. I wonder if we can get Joshua to pin a down a deadline for that earthquake.

Joshua Udell said...

Robert, your blog is very will managed.

I will place the May 9th, 2009 prophecy on my site, which goes into detail about the earthquake that happens in Mississippi.

One thing I will leave on your site, that is not in the prophecy, there will be minor quakes in the south, before the biggest earthquake hits, this is when you will know that Mississippi is about to face the big one.

The caution/warning is posted, the word is out.

ethinethin said...

Poe.

Robert Madewell said...

"Robert, your blog is very will managed."

I'm assuming you meant to say, "Well Managed". In that case, "Thank You!"

Ethinethin, I assure you that Joshua is the real thing.

Robert Madewell said...

Joshua,
Do you have a timeframe in mind that these things are supposed to happen in? Should a barely measurable tremor count? (these happen all the time in SE Missouri due to the New Madrid Fault) Maybe you could give me a number on the Richter scale or something.

ethinethin said...

I dunno.. when I went to his "prophecy" page and all those audio streams automatically started at the same time, I was gobsmacked. I thought "there's no way this guy is for real".

Anonymous said...

Yikes. I have found his youtube channel. He has tourette syndrome or something a bit more extreme. He lurches back and forth with facial ticks and absurd blinking.

I wonder if it's an act for his youtube videos or if he's really like that.

If he's really like that, it's slightly sad that his friends and family see some sort of righteous zeal rather than pushing him to seek the medical help he desperately needs.

It reminds me of that Tony guy who made youtube videos about VenomFangX being "the truth" and then turned around and murdered some young woman before killing himself.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert,

You may be interested in this prophecy, If any were to come true it would be from this man:

http://davidwilkersontoday.blogspot.com/2009/03/urgent-message.html

I say that because he got a similar premonition/prophecy of tragedy coming to NYC several weeks before 9/11.

Robert Madewell said...

The Cross and The Switchblade guy? No thanks!

My folks made me read these horrible comic books about Wilkerson and others written by Jack the Chick, as a replacement for evil DC Comics.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert, I sense a lot of hostility towards your family/upbringing. Are you on good terms with them now? I mean, besides the whole religion issue?

Robert Madewell said...

"Robert, I sense a lot of hostility towards your family/upbringing. Are you on good terms with them now? I mean, besides the whole religion issue?"

You're assuming alot. I am being sarcastic with you.

The fact is that I am actually quite familiar with Wilkerson. He has been predicting that NYC will burn for the lat 50 years. So happens that, eventually a catastrophy hits NYC. The problem is that Wilkerson predicted that the city would be destroyed, it wasn't.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert,

I also read those Chick tracts and comic books. I can assure you that Wilkerson has not been predicting that "NYC will burn for the last 50 years". I have followed his predictions, and they have been about financial disaster for America as a whole since the 80s or so. We are seeing that coming to pass now.

You are correct however about Wilkerson predicting NYC burning, but that has only been the last 10 years or so. After 9/11 Wilkerson gave a message and stated clearly that 9/11 was NOT the disaster he saw, what he saw was much, much worse. It is on their website.

In any case, since you were checking prophecies out I thought I would share that with you. We know from the Bible that a man that makes any mistakes in prophecy is a phony. God's servants have 100% accuracy. Yes, Wilkerson has predicted disaster for a long time, but I remind you that Noah predicted rain for 100 years.

GCT said...

"We know from the Bible that a man that makes any mistakes in prophecy is a phony."

How convenient.

Robert Madewell said...

PO, you said, "I say that because he got a similar premonition/prophecy of tragedy coming to NYC several weeks before 9/11.

Then you say,"After 9/11 Wilkerson gave a message and stated clearly that 9/11 was NOT the disaster he saw, what he saw was much, much worse."

Changing your story?

Moving goalposts run, run, run!
Moving goalposts are you done, done, done?

Robert Madewell said...

PO said, "We know from the Bible that a man that makes any mistakes in prophecy is a phony. God's servants have 100% accuracy."

PO, glad to hear you say that, because here's an interesting quote from a very prominent christian prophet.

"I have a relatively good track record, Sometimes I miss." --Pat Robertson

What do you think, huh?

The Prophetic Observer said...

PO, you said, "I say that because he got a similar premonition/prophecy of tragedy coming to NYC several weeks before 9/11.

Then you say,"After 9/11 Wilkerson gave a message and stated clearly that 9/11 was NOT the disaster he saw, what he saw was much, much worse."

Changing your story?

Uhh, no. Wilkerson had a premonition something was going to happen seven weeks before 9/11. He didn't say what it was, but they canceled some planned trips and events and called the church to prayer. As I said before, after 9/11 Wilkerson stated that it was not the disaster that he had been predicting since 1999 or so. That one specifically says that there will be 1000 fires in New York and involving the entire Metroplex. They are different prophecies. There is also the financial prophecy, which is separate.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert said:

"I have a relatively good track record, Sometimes I miss." --Pat Robertson

What do you think, huh?

Like I said, the Bible makes it crystal clear that a prophet of God is always 100% correct. Back in ancient times a false prophet was put to death for giving a bad prophecy. In the case of Daniel chapter 2, King Nebuchadnezzar required the prophets not only tell him the interpretation of the dream that he had, but also the dream. He had forgotten it. Nebuchadnezzar was in the process of killing all his prophets when Daniel received the dream and interpretation.

So, to answer your question, any prediction Pat Robertson made that didn't come true was of his own imagination, not from God.

GCT said...

"Like I said, the Bible makes it crystal clear that a prophet of God is always 100% correct."

Chapter and verse please.

I may be wrong about this, but IIRC, the verse you thinking of says a couple things:

1. If someone has a prophecy and they claim it came from god - if it is correct, then it did come from god. If it is not correct, then it did not come from god and the person is lying and shall be put to death.
2. If someone has a prophecy and they claim it came from another source - if it is incorrect, then the person is a liar and shall be put to death. If it is correct, then it is god testing the people to see if they will start to believe in the false god that the person speaks of, and they should put the person to death for leading them astray.

This is different from a prophet of god is always 100% correct.

Robert Madewell said...

"When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him." Deuteronomy 18:22

This verse doesn't actually say that the prophet is a false prophet if he's wrong. It says that if he's wrong then the prophecy didn't come from God. If the prophecy happens to be right, then the prophecy comes from God. Should I say it?

How convenient.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert said:

"This verse doesn't actually say that the prophet is a false prophet if he's wrong. It says that if he's wrong then the prophecy didn't come from God. If the prophecy happens to be right, then the prophecy comes from God. Should I say it?"

Saying that a prophecy did not come from God is the same as saying that he is a false prophet. He is giving you the criteria for detecting a false prophet, As he does in Deuteronomy 13, which tells us that even if the prophet is correct, if he tells us to do something against the Word we are to not do heed that prophet. It goes on to say that God may test us by allowing a false prophet to give a true prophecy. A true prophet of God will never give us instruction contrary to God's Word. God only gives correct prophecies. Should I say it?

Ignorant of the scripture.

GCT said...

Simply because you have different interpretations of scripture doesn't mean that we are ignorant unless we agree with you.

Now, the real question is, how can you believe such transparently stupid things like that? The Bible simply defines all correct prophecy as coming from god and if someone claims it came from another god, it's god testing us to see if we'll follow the other god? How incredibly stupid.

Robert Madewell said...

PO, I read that verse literally. the verses before it say much the same.

"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. "

Ok, if a prophet speaks in Gods name, but God didn't tell him to speak, you're supposed to kill him. If he speaks in another God's name, kill him too. Of course, you'll ask, "How do we know if the word comes from God"? Well, if the prohecy comes true, God did it. If not, God didn't do it. Kill! Kill! Kill!

OK, so maybe you can infer that if he's wrong then he's a false prophet. It doesn't actually say it though. It says he was presumptious. Presumptiousness is hardly a crime, today.

So, I'll just concede a little and say that PO is right that he's a false prophet. That means that Pat Robertson, David Wilkerson, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe and a bunch more are all false prophets, because they say that God told them something and it didn't come true. If you're going to stone ministers for false prophecy, you better get started. There's a bunch of them.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert said:

"So, I'll just concede a little and say that PO is right that he's a false prophet. That means that Pat Robertson, David Wilkerson, Benny Hinn, Jack Van Impe and a bunch more are all false prophets, because they say that God told them something and it didn't come true. If you're going to stone ministers for false prophecy, you better get started. There's a bunch of them."

If you know of a prophecy that they made that didn't come true then yes. IIRC Jack Van Impe made some bizarre predictions including specific dates for Jesus' return. Pretty bold seeing as even Jesus doesn't know the day or the hour. (Mark 13:32). If someone claims they know the date of Jesus' return you can label them a false prophet immediately. Pat Robertson I don't know about, I'll take your word on him. Benny Hinn is a wackjob. Wilkerson has made predictions that haven't come true yet, but as I pointed out so did Noah.

I assume you familiar with these loons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mqkt7nHong

GCT said...

Shorter PO,

"Only people that I believe in make true predictions. And, although the predictions haven't come true yet, I know they will even though all others have failed over the years. Oh, and I'm going to ignore the fact that they are vague predictions, they have no specific dates or times, and they could be interpreted any number of different ways which allows me to crow that they came true as soon as I can figure out a way to interpret them so that they appear to have happened. Of course, prophesying that a child will eat a peanut butter and jelly sandwich somewhere in the world at some point in the future isn't that difficult, but it works for my limited ability to discern BS."

OK, so that wasn't actually shorter. Sorry.

Joshua Udell said...

Robert you are doing a great job managing your blog!

As to your question: Scientist say the Madrid Fault could be silent for a long period of time... What do they know... They have researched it... So there must be facts to support this.

However, it very well could be in the next three to five years, the biggest clue is... when we begin to see several small quakes in the region we will know that it will happen.

I am even going to say an undersea quake near Mississippi is possible.

This is unusual because Mississippi, you would think hurricanes. I also sense in my spirit this will be a rather calm season for America regarding hurricanes.

Living close by each other, it is cool to know that us Ozark hillbillies know a bit about earthquakes. Although they are more on the southeast side (St. Louis area) of Missouri.

On the Richter Scale, it will be the largest they have had in Mississippi's history since they have been able to scale earthquakes.

You da man! Keep up the good work.

Robert Madewell said...

Udell,
Is it the Mississippi State or River?

Robert Madewell said...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Mqkt7nHong

Anonymous said...

Well, Josh Udell must be a false prophet. He had a video on his youtube channel (he must have just deleted it, I saw it days ago but it's not there now!) where he said god told him some sports team would win and then they didn't.

People even talked to him in the comments as if he wasn't claiming that it was the word of god, saying things like "better luck next year!"

I find it amusing that he deleted it. I guess it was proof that he was just a delusional crackpot, so by deleting it, he can claim it never happened (and after he reinforces that delusion a few times, he'll start believing it himself).

Oh, btw, what does "you are doing a great job managing your blog" even mean? It sounds like he's approving of your atheism. Isn't that enough to land him in hell in some way?

Robert Madewell said...

Wow! You guys weren't kidding about his youtube channel.

http://www.youtube.com/user/shabackshalom

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert, you will love this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOLCtaT1ecE

They made a prediction of massive destruction in March, I can't find that video, but I found this.

It is important to realize that Christians are not to seek signs (Matthew 16:4). There are many wrapped up in following Benny Hinn around, watching him slap people on the forehead or wave his jacket at them to make them fall over. If you are looking for something there are people out there ready to give it to you for a price (love gift).

The church is in shambles, full of false doctrine, teachers and apostasy. There is much for you and your Atheist friends to scoff at Robert, and rightly so. But I can attest to the fact that God is real. You have never experienced God, so you don't know He is real. I understand that. But I have, I have heard his still small voice. I have also seen glimpses of the other side. I cannot prove God to you or anyone. I can only tell you my story and urge you to seek the truth for yourself.

The Prophetic Observer said...

I found the original video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9WKjqavxn4

Robert Madewell said...

PO,
Here's a response from the slightly annoying King Heathen. I disagree with him on some issues, but I think his response to 1unknownprophet is right on.

1UnknownProphet EXPOSED!BTW, I usually don't take anyone seriously that won't allow comments on their websites or videos.

Robert Madewell said...

"I cannot prove God to you or anyone. I can only tell you my story and urge you to seek the truth for yourself."

Exactly! The problem with your story is that I had a story myself when I was a christian. I know how the human mind can deceive itself. That's why skeptics usually dismiss anecdotal testamonies.

You also just admitted to me what I have been saying all along. That you (or anyone else) can not prove that God exists. That's the point. God isn't like the wind or gravity. I can't see those things, but I (and you) can prove that they exist. However, God is always just beyond our perception. To me, that looks alot like not existing.

Seeking the truth is why I even have this blog. If I wasn't seeking the truth, I'd still be going to church twice a week and speaking in glossolalia.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert said:

"Exactly! The problem with your story is that I had a story myself when I was a christian. I know how the human mind can deceive itself. That's why skeptics usually dismiss anecdotal testimonies."Robert, you are the only judge of whether you deceived yourself or not. I know what it was like to deceive myself into believing God existed because others told me he did, or the Bible did. I was there. I had no personal relationship with Him, I believed in Him like you would believe in Santa or the Easter bunny. I came to the same crossroad that you did. I saw my life was not right, I was unhappy. I told God I wanted the truth, no matter what the cost. I told Him if He was real He had to reveal himself to me. And you know what? He did. Not right away, not all at once, but He did.


Robert said:

"You also just admitted to me what I have been saying all along. That you (or anyone else) can not prove that God exists. That's the point. God isn't like the wind or gravity. I can't see those things, but I (and you) can prove that they exist. However, God is always just beyond our perception. To me, that looks alot like not existing."Robert, I have stated many times that I cannot prove God exists. No one can, except Him. I can only share my experience. Finding God takes patience and the will to do things on His terms and on His timetable. He will test your resolve. It takes time to learn to be sensitive to His "still, small voice" in our heart. It is hard.

Robert said:

"Seeking the truth is why I even have this blog. If I wasn't seeking the truth, I'd still be going to church twice a week and speaking in glossolalia."I sense you are seeking the truth Robert, that is the only reason I am hanging around for the moment.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert said:

"Here's a response from the slightly annoying King Heathen. I disagree with him on some issues, but I think his response to 1unknownprophet is right on.What can I say Robert? King Heathen was right. There are plenty of kooks and false prophets out there. That does not prove they are all fake though.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Robert,

Just wanted to add, I have no problem standing beside you and condemning phonies and charlatans. One thing that is common though is like all liars and deceivers they mix a lot of truth in their lies. Matthew 24 outlines this pretty well.

Anonymous said...

The power of prayer
Wausau,Wis.
A mother praying instead of getting medical help for her 11 year old daughter was found guilty of second degree reckless homicide.
Lielani Neumann age 41.
Her daughter died of untreated diabetes on March 23, 2008, surronded by people praying for her. When the child stoped beathing, her parents business and bible study partners finally called 911.
Her mother recklessly killed her by ignoring obvisious symtomns, such as her inability to walk or talk.
Yes I copied the print in the paper to post this. (above)
*******
How is it that priests, nuns, bishops did not hear the christian gods when abusing boys and girls for over 70 years in Ireland? Over 40,000 boys and girls. They who prey and talk to gods, know them, preach the christian values to the flocks. The extent of the crimes commited are unthikable in their brutality and magnitude. These crimes by catholic christians will just be swept under the rug, they are sorry now that they have been exposed, and like christian horrors of the past will be forgotten by the news media and the masses. They (catholic church )are even blocking the posting of the names of the criminals who commited these horrors.
ibex

Lorena said...

Robert,

I should check your thread more often. This one, for instance, turned into a lot of fun :)

They're more fun when I just read. So, I'll get on with the reading.

Joshua Udell said...

Robert Madewell said...
Udell,
Is it the Mississippi State or River?

Mississippi, though there will be three major earthquakes in America under Obama.

Saturday, January 17, 2009

And God said, I shall awaken this land with a mighty shaking, a mighty earthquake shall come under the Presidency of Barack Obama in America in three different locations. And this shall be because in three years with Barack Obama as President his third year in the office he will die to self completely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hope you had a good bedside baptist Sunday. It's seems to work, most atheists as like you know more about the Bible than Christians. ;)

Joshua Udell said...

ANOMYOUS, state you name or stay in your own country.

People like you are ashamed to even use even a first name is shameful.

Come out or stay on your isolated island.

Robert Madewell said...

Joshua,

Many atheists are afraid to identify as an atheist. I know for a fact that this is the case for Ibex. I too, for a while was afraid to be known as an atheist. The reasons should be clear enough.

Ibex can keep his anonymity.

Joshua Udell said...

Robert, that's fine, but you gotta know it's not because he's an atheist it's because of his explicit remarks!

Anonymous said...

Whether I'm anonymous or not doesn't change the fact that you took down a video where you made a "god's prophecy" which specifically did not come true.

If you must know, I post anonymously because you appear to be schizophrenic and I would rather you not have any way to identify me in case you decide to pull a "Tony Powell".

I would also like to encourage anyone who is reading this to visit his Youtube channel to see the kind of deranged character he is:

http://www.youtube.com/user/shabackshalom is his youtube channel.

If you do check it out and are as appalled as I am by his apparent mental unhealth, please be sure to vote 1-star on all of his videos. It takes less than a few minutes to do and he might comment on one of them calling you a coward (although he did later erase that comment as well, since I guess he was ashamed of his temper).

By down-voting his videos, you lower their relevancy so that they appear lower in search results and he gets fewer clicks. It isn't mean spirited to do this and it may ensure that other unhinged people won't see his videos and believe that he's really hearing the voice of god.

Joshua Udell said...

Anonymous, you can say as you like, which is okay, I just don't like the fact that you say things about me that are against my beliefs.

If you are a true atheist, as Robert says, you are the an unfortunate example of tolerance I have seen. IMO

Most atheists and agnostics are nice spirited people, you... humm... you are the one acting paranoid when there have been no threats against made against you like you are making not me. IMO.

The face thing, yes I had a bad allergic reaction, nothing more nothing less. Sorry it bothers you, think about how much it bothers me.

Robert Madewell said...

I think we have two anonymous' on this thread. No wonder, I'm confused.

Robert Madewell said...

Joshua said, "Most atheists and agnostics are nice spirited people ..."

I remember you writing something else about us in your Op-Ed piece for The Springfield News-Leader. I think I remember something about Nazis and Stalin. Did you change your mind, Joshua? It's OK if you did.

Joshua Udell said...

No, I don't have a News-Leader account to post comments.

I wouldn't say that because there is so much more to look at with the Crusades...

Get my point.

BTW what is the Opt Ed Page? Perhaps there was something printed although Udell is a rare last name there could be other Udell(s) in the area.

If you can find the article, I would like to see it.

Once again you da man Robert. Some of your stuff on your blog is pretty funny. ;)

Even I can be open minded and admit that.

gObama!

Anonymous said...

The face thing, yes I had a bad allergic reaction, nothing more nothing less. Sorry it bothers you, think about how much it bothers me.
Oh, the constant facial ticks and the rocking back and forth present in ALL your videos is nothing more than an "allergic reaction"? What are you allergic to, god's voice or something?

Robert Madewell said...

Joshua, If I can get your Op-Ed piece that you submitted to The News-Leader, can I post it as part of a blog post? I'll see Sherry H. this weekend maybe she can get me a copy of it.

Anonymous said...

If it's a public piece then why do you ask his permission? Especially considering that he's a known liar.

Anonymous said...

And of course, he doesn't respond. I think he realizes he's been caught in a lie in a forum where he can't erase all proof of it. Didn't "foresee" that, eh Josh?

The Prophetic Observer said...

Anon said:

"And of course, he doesn't respond. I think he realizes he's been caught in a lie in a forum where he can't erase all proof of it. Didn't "foresee" that, eh Josh?"

Which at most proves nothing but that Joshua Udell is a false prophet. There are always false prophets. It doesn't reflect on Christianity any more than fake Gucci bags reflect on the existence of the real ones.

Anonymous said...

Indeed, PO. "No true scotsman" indeed. Keep in mind this man is a minister who actually has a small town church people attend.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Not sure what good prophesying winning sports teams does, but I would be taking that gift to the race track if it were me. :o)

Anonymous said...

So, PO, out of blinkered curiosity, and back on topic to the discussion, how do you reconcile your belief in prophecies and the christian concept of "free will"? Don't they contradict each other?

It seems to me that if one knows the future, they can change the future. Maybe God is super-selective about who he gives his prophecies to. But I have always seen the idea of prophecies to be a parallel to "fate" and "destiny", which are not compatible with the concept of "free will".

And how does God know what is going to happen? Is he removed from time, he simply exists in all capacities and in all time frames and he can view our subjective, time-based reality as a reader browsing back and forth through a book?

That'd be a hell of a book! I'd buy a copy, but I can't afford the shipping.

The Prophetic Observer said...

Anon said:

"And how does God know what is going to happen? Is he removed from time, he simply exists in all capacities and in all time frames and he can view our subjective, time-based reality as a reader browsing back and forth through a book?"

Precisely. We do have a completely free will, but God not being bound by time is aware of all that has and is going to happen. I see it as more of a timeline that he can focus on any point of. But the book analogy works as well.

GCT said...

Sorry, but free will is not possible with an omni-max god. Since god necessarily knew all outcomes, thoughts, ideas, etc. from the moment of inception of the universe (and even before if it's possible to speak about before the universe) the world was made deterministic at that point that god created. Thus, you have no free will. You might think or feel like you have the ability to make choices, but it was all put into play when god said, "Let there be light."

The Prophetic Observer said...

You can add predetermination and foreknowledge to the ever growing list of concepts that baffle GCT. :o)

GCT said...

Again with the ad hominems? Hey, don't get mad at me or denigrate me simply because you can't actually answer any objection posed to you. It's not bafflement, quite far from it. I actually understand the concepts and understand why free will simply does not work with an omni-max god.

But, hey, here's your chance to shine. No theist has yet been able to answer this simple scenario, so you could shine and show how smart you really are (and whether it's as smart as you pretend to be).

I'll go slow so that you can follow. First, since god is omniscient and omnipotent, do you agree that god has the ability to write a book that would detail the life of a person chosen at random? And, by detail, I mean that the person's details will be recorded down to what they have done, what they will do, what they have ever thought or will think, what they have ever felt or will feel, etc.

If you're still with me, suppose that god handed this book to the person it was written about. Do you agree that god has this power?

Now, can the person freely choose to do anything not in the book or contrary to the book?

Take your time...I'm not expecting you to actually answer with anything buy more personal attacks and ad hominems.

Anonymous said...

Precisely. We do have a completely free will, but God not being bound by time is aware of all that has and is going to happen. I see it as more of a timeline that he can focus on any point of. But the book analogy works as well.

Personally, I think that's a really foolish thing to believe but I also think the belief in a theistic* god is foolish.

It also does your cause the favor of setting up the "you can't understand the might and majesty of god" argument which is... well... logically, pointless. If you're going to even say anything that pointless, you might as well not even try to argue for the existence of a god.

*I don't know why I made the distinction here. I also find the concepts of a deistic god and a pantheistic god to be foolish, for the same "we can't understand" reason. Yes, life, the universe, everything are all a complete mystery. We don't know why it all happened and we may never know. To call it "god", however, is both an overly abstract concept and an intellectual dead end.

So how can "god" do things that are logically impossible and paradoxical? I guess I just "can't understand the might and majesty of god".

So, here's another question for you PO, once again due to my blinkered curiosity: if god is all powerful, could he cause himself to stop existing?

And another: is god capable of feeling fear? He's been shown in your bible to show love, anger, revenge, impatience, to name a few human emotions. But can he feel fear?

Joshua Udell said...

Robert, I like ya, I'm gay! ;-)

Anyways my dad was snooping on my computer and got pissed off.

So here is something I would like to share with you:

Babies, that just don't swat in a potty. Many of them only care for their own reputation, they get fired for too many vacations and talking on the phone too long at work. They drink coffee and do too many meeting, and are never really there for their family and then they tell you to grow up.

I guess you call it over the hill and they can't handle bread without butter.

Well I have the Jam and the Power. Cranky old men threaten you when you are trying to get a new home and say I will make you leave this house if you keep this shit up.

The majority of these cranky old men are old and dying and don't know how to relate to modern day freedom of speech.

They grew up abused by their parents and did the same things to their own kids. In fact some cranky old men will keep punching you and punching you until their is a blood bath in their bedroom. Being held down by cranky old mens parents beating, and beating, and beating untill the poor boy is abused, voilated, and misused. Then they tell you to punch them, and say they are Christian.

And cranky old men tell you to take care of their house, when it's not their house but their own damn house.

I say to crany old men get a life! Cranky old men hold their farts in at work and go to the bathroom and let them rip.

Plain Facts: Cranky Old Men Suck

Moral of the Story:

Hate is in the heart of Cranky old Men

PS, Barack Hussien Obama is what Cranky Racist OId men hate.

BTW Lindsay and I both voted for Obama!

~Hanging out with the company of the prophets.~

http://joshuaudell.webs.com/apps/forums/topics/show/1036503-cranky-old-men

Joshua Udell said...

"I wrote a terse reply on the board, but there is a lot of claims made here. Some may even be testable by just waiting to see what happens. Otherwise, its the same old doom and destruction prophecies you always hear. I think these ministers get some kind of perverse pleasure out of believing that bad things will happen."

It sucks Robert. I am a student of God. You know I am about to possibly get canned from teaching in church. So what God is in control, what ever happens happens.

An interview for your blog would be fun. What do you think can you handle this "perverse prophet"?

You have my permission to e-mail me. Somehow I know it wouldn't be hard for you to get the email ;)

Since your an athiest prophet.